Unschooling

[fus3r]

Why not allow children to be able to purchase the foods that they want so that they can learn these things at a younger age? I know I could have learned this stuff at least in my early teens but I wasn't in the right situation be motivated to learn.

i don't know about you, but i was certainly told what was good for me to eat and what was bad. i suspect you were too. its not that you didn't know that your food choices were poor, its that you didn't care. your parents know that you will eventually care someday, so they make you eat responsibly.

That's right. I totally disagree that a child doesn't know what's best for them. The child knows when it is hungry, needs attention, want's to play, what it is interested in, etc.. I'd say 95% of the time the child knows exactly what is best for itself. The other 5% is what the parent is for, protecting and enabling the child to learn.

knowing what you want and what is best for you, are two totally different things.

You say children need control and supervision. I can agree on the supervision part but why do children need control? Also, in the cases of unschooling what do you mean by traditional parenting?

by traditional parenting, i mean control. ie making kids drink milk and eat vegetables, making them go to bed at a reasonable time, making them brush their teeth, etc. these are all things that children would likely not do without persuasion.

[dmp1ce]

I'm fine with persuasion. Did you mean to say coercion? Because using force or using deception are really the only ways to control someone against their will that I can think of.

[fus3r]

I'm fine with persuasion. Did you mean to say coercion? Because using force or using deception are really the only ways to control someone against their will that I can think of.

i meant persuasion. but i'm not against coercion. how do you persuade a child to stop drawing on the wall? tell him to stop? what if he doesn't want to stop? do you take away their crayons? is that considered coercion? how many questions do you think i can string together at once? seven?

[dmp1ce]

That's a good question. I don't know. I'm not sure exactly what to deal with a child damaging property. I guess it would be similar to how I might treat an adult if they were to do the same thing. I suppose I would first tell them to stop. If that didn't work then I suppose I would just have to physically not allow them to damage the property. I ask for payment for the damaged property but that really doesn't work with a child. Although, if the child had an allowance or made money in some way you could ask them to pay back the damaged property.

What do you think? Just spank them when they damage property? Take away their freedom by grounding them? Take away their property?

[fus3r]

That's a good question. I don't know. I'm not sure exactly what to deal with a child damaging property. I guess it would be similar to how I might treat an adult if they were to do the same thing. I suppose I would first tell them to stop. If that didn't work then I suppose I would just have to physically not allow them to damage the property. I ask for payment for the damaged property but that really doesn't work with a child. Although, if the child had an allowance or made money in some way you could ask them to pay back the damaged property.

What do you think? Just spank them when they damage property? Take away their freedom by grounding them? Take away their property?

i don't necessarily think physical correction is right. but i'd certainly take away privileges. video games, TV, car, etc.

i'll revisit this thread in a few years after i have a kid. it will be quite a challenge! its very exciting/terrifying.

[true.]

Shew. I don't see where you guys get the time for these discussions.

I studied development quite a bit in college. More importantly, I studied individual differences.

It is important to note that genetics control about half of a childs behavior while the other half is controlled by the environment. Beyond the their similar genetic make up, parents are largely out weighed by the peer group and general environment the child grows up in. Obviously there are exceptions to every rule.

Point is, this method of unschooling can be successful in some individual children while it can go horribly wrong in others. Looking at all theories of education, their fatal flaw is blanket assumptions (ie. one method works universally). Society and individual differences are are not conducive to this. It's the daunting task of the parent to figure out what is going to work for their child and quickly implement the correct strategy.

I would recommend starting by granting as much liberty as is safely possible and adjusting as needed.

For example, I never plan on instituting curfews for my children as I never had one or needed one. If one night my son comes home with a bag of meth (which I am for legalizing all drugs), his rights and liberties will be rapidly reduced under my household. I would have no problem resorting to violence and beating his retarded ass until some sense gets knocked into him (I don't support spanking or hitting children, but when your bringing home meth, you need your ass beat). If the child/boy/young man wants to ruin his life and become a druggy, he won't do it on my watch and he can resume this behavior when he is 18 and gets out of my house.

The fact is, you have to rationally approach the situation and adjust for individual differences along the way. There is no template.

I'll say one thing though. Get the FEDS out of the classroom!

[miracle]

Point is, this method of unschooling can be successful in some individual children while it can go horribly wrong in others. Looking at all theories of education, their fatal flaw is blanket assumptions (ie. one method works universally). Society and individual differences are are not conducive to this. It's the daunting task of the parent to figure out what is going to work for their child and quickly implement the correct strategy.

I couldn't agree more. If you look back at my two posts they take no position on unschooling. I am confident this will work for some people. On the flip side I could post thousands of stories about people who grew up in the structure of school and were grateful for it, in turn having what they considered to be successful lives. What method any of choose will most likely be a mix of structure and independence balanced to the best of our ability to help shape our child into a "great" person.

The position I did take and the point I was making was directed to partyp in regards to letting a child do whatever they want at age 3. This is so far from reality it is scary. Maybe a separate thread should be started to discuss this if you someone doesn't agree. We can list hundreds of situations in a single month of toddlers life where saying "no" or physically stopping them from doing what they want is the only logical option. ex: I want to color on the wall... or I want to drive Daddys car... or I want to drink daddys beer...

I think what you are saying is that you will always try to allow your child to do what they want (as will I) so they can learn from their experiences. I am just making the point that you have to say "no" or stop the child from doing what they want quite frequently... anyone who has been a parent will not disagree with this... ask them. Or just tell anyone who has been a parent that you plan to let your child do whatever they want at age 3... see what they say.

A much more realistic and interesting conversation is when can you "let go" and let your child do whatever they want? When your 12 old daughter says I'm going on a date tonight with 17 yr old college student... will you say no? Or maybe she says I'm going to spend the night with him. You will see it is tough not to say "no" even at age 12... anyhow like I said earlier if anyone disagrees with this we should probably start another thread.... btw... thanks for getting D and I sick, PARTYP!

[dmp1ce]

What did you studies say about childhood abuse and childhood trauma? Because all of my experience and research says that those things make a huge difference. And the number 1 source of trauma is from the parent. Watch the bomb in the brain series that I posted earlier if you don't believe me. I believe it has several sources.

That leads me to my next point in saying is it worth causing your child trauma by beating them just to impose your own moral beliefs on them. The moral belief might be "don't use drugs" or "don't have sex before 18". These things can certainly be talked about with a teenager and a teenager is more than capable of making their own decisions if they want.

I also find it interesting the claim that unschooling is a one size fits all approach. That is exactly what unschooling is not. Unschooling is whatever the child wants it to be. That is the whole point. The child can choose to go to school if that is what they want. Or they could choose to have no school at all. The only thing that is missing from the unschooling is the requirement that a child MUST do A, B or C arbitrarily. Instead the child learns what is required naturally. Left to learn on their own and allowing them to think for themselves they are more likely to learn the importance of health, happiness, community, etc.. I think this is desirable if we want a happy and more peaceful generation of people as opposed to teaching children to learn how to make the grade to please authority figures just to learn how to be a cog political and economic system of the time.

I think some good points were brought up about children who might make decisions that would be very dangerous to them. Obviously, some things like trying to drive a car would either need to be explained to the child or just not allowed. That might be a good time to teach what property is and how you respect other peoples property perhaps. I think this would be possible at 3. But what about "softer" rules on your child. What if the child WANTS to stay up all night? Will you let them? What if the child doesn't want to eat certain foods. Will you force them to eat it or punish them otherwise? What if the child doesn't want to go to preschool for whatever reason? Will you let them skip it?

Would you use persuasion and empathy to help your child grow or use force to try and impose your beliefs on the child?

[true.]

What did you studies say about childhood abuse and childhood trauma? Because all of my experience and research says that those things make a huge difference. And the number 1 source of trauma is from the parent. Watch the bomb in the brain series that I posted earlier if you don't believe me. I believe it has several sources.

That leads me to my next point in saying is it worth causing your child trauma by beating them just to impose your own moral beliefs on them. The moral belief might be "don't use drugs" or "don't have sex before 18". These things can certainly be talked about with a teenager and a teenager is more than capable of making their own decisions if they want.?

I don't know about everyone else but I just can’t take ole' Steph seriously. You seem to be quite a disciple of his, which is fine, but he seems a little flakey to me. If he is so knowledgeable, he needs to go out and make some money so he can buy himself a more watchable set and lose this little mic thingy.

The effects of meth on the brain are a lot worse that the effects of a kid getting his ass kicked when he does something amazingly retarded and harmful to his health. Yes, continuous or extreme physical and/or mental abuse can be seriously detrimental but the brain isn't as fragile as you make it to be. Physical altercations are not damaging in of their self. We are animals, we are territorial, we are possessive, and we are aggressive at times. THIS is natural, not the extreme passivism that you seem to advocate. Do I advocate solving things in a violent manner? No, I don’t. Do I advocate others forcing me or anyone else to do something with the threat of violence? No, I don’t. Do I recognize the fact that sometimes a line in the sand needs to be drawn and if that line is crossed, then the crosser needs to be checked? Yes.

Example: I am a victim of a home evasion. Three men come into my house. Two take my girlfriend while I am left with one man. Somehow, I gain control of that one man. Problem, I don’t advocate or support torture. Am I to go “Jack Bauer” on his ass or not? You’re damn right I am. Still, I do not advocate use of torture.

Point is, life isn’t as cut and dry as you’d like it to be. Once you start experimenting with your methods I think you’ll learn that.

[dmp1ce]

So let me get this right, your discrediting someone because they SEEM flakey and they don't have good enough pod casting equipment. You also advocating further harm to someone who has already experienced harm upon themselves. However you state that somehow physical harm is less serious than the harm that may occur from taking a taking a chemical substance although you give no proof as to why that would be except to say it is because we are all animals. You relate raising a child to extreme passivism somehow. Since when did raising a child with love and empathy suddenly mean I advocate passivism in society? Also you point out that life isn't cut and dry and imply that I don't know this because I do not have enough life experience, but I'm guessing you do, right? Not to mention there is TONS of evidence to support the counter that raising a child in an abusive situation can cause tremendous amounts of health and psychological problems which can include a higher chance of depression, suicide, antisocial behavior and even cancer.

Did I get all of that right?

Heck, if you don't like Steph, take your pick of the other sources that have information on this. I've linked to some below. After enough evidence though I have to conclude that the facts and evidence don't really matter. It's not about the facts is it? It's about what feels good and what reinforces your already established beliefs.

http://www.acestudy.org/
http://www.cavalcadeproductions.com/ace-study.html
http://www.neuropsychiatryreviews.com/0 ... lence.html
http://psychohistory.com/originsofwar/0 ... ology.html
http://www.motherinlawsunite.com/index.php?topic=46.0
http://www.adoptionarticlesdirectory.co ... onships/42
http://www.childwelfare.gov/pubs/focus/ ... braina.cfm

These images are from studies conducted by a team of researchers from the Child Trauma Academy (http://www.ChildTrauma.org) led by Bruce D. Perry, M.D., Ph.D.
http://primal-page.com/childabu.htm
http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... -mortality
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 115140.htm
http://freedomainradio.com/BOARD/forums/t/10392.aspx
http://www.religioustolerance.org/spankin4.htm#neg
http://www.religioustolerance.org/spankin29.htm
http://www.religioustolerance.org/spankin28.htm
http://www.annafoundation.org/stwh.html
http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/display ... 68/1285720
http://www.shockmd.com/2009/05/13/neuro ... -exercise/
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 104819.htm

For Initial Treatment Of Moderate To Severe Major Depression, Cognitive Therapy And Medication May Be Equally Effective
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 092142.htm
http://www.cancerconsultants.com/17196/
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 092229.htm

obesity:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12119573
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1757 ... rom=pubmed

Alcohol:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1654 ... rom=pubmed

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1175 ... rom=pubmed

Leading causes of death:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9635 ... rom=pubmed

The impact of maternal childhood abuse on maternal and infant HPA axis function in the postpartum period.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1993 ... inalpos=18

drug abuse:
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/c ... /111/3/564

stress:
http://www.the-scientist.com/blog/display/56139/
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Adverse+c ... 0202360686

smoking/depression:
http://xnet.kp.org/permanentejournal/wi ... olead.html

[fus3r]

raising a child in an abusive situation can cause tremendous amounts of health and psychological problems which can include a higher chance of depression, suicide, antisocial behavior and even cancer.

i don't think anyone is advocating abusively raising their children. yes, i'm sure we can all agree that persistent child abuse can be devastating to people. forcing my kid to eat his vegetables by withholding his toys is not abuse. you might think it is, but i do not.

So let me get this right, your discrediting someone because they SEEM flakey and they don't have good enough pod casting equipment.

i'm guilty of this too. if he's some philosophical genius, why doesn't he write a book or something? any nut can buy a webcam and post videos on youtube. that doesn't mean he knows anything.
exhibit a: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Go3Vt2yTah0 (he shares some of your views!)
exhibit b: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2RQ2BjuXbQ

[dmp1ce]

Oh, you like books? http://www.freedomainradio.com/Books.aspx

[fus3r]

hm, interesting. so either nobody buys his books.. or he just doesn't care how his videos look.

[dmp1ce]

I think some people buy his books. He allows them to be downloaded for free.

[true.]

You really don’t need to post dozens of links with each post. If I had the time, I could get on the internet and pull up a few dozens studies done by PHD’s that support spanking. I don’t agree with them but the point is there are many conflicting views in child development and evidence to support both sides.

I could also pull up hundreds of studies showing negative of effects of marijuana, tobacco and alcohol. There are most likely thousands of studies on the effects of cocaine, meth, heroine, etc. But I assume you probably discredit those as propaganda because their just “chemicals”?

I read one study one that stated doing cocaine more twice a week for three weeks will cause life long bi-polar disorder. So, would you forcibly stop your 16 year old from doing cocaine and take the risk of damaging him from your violent behavior or would you allow them to continue to take this “chemical” and bring on a life long psychological disorder as a result?

You’re taking non-extreme instances and making them looks like they are end of the world, life altering episodes. This is the same sensationalism used by Fox News, CNN, and even your group, Free Talk Live. It is the same tactics, just opposite views.

Were you abused as a child? I've met your parents and even witnessed the whole buzz discussion recently that your father chimed in on. I'm guessing they didn't "unschool" you. Are you emotionally traumatized by how they brought you up? Did they provide a little too much direction? Marc, Jake?

I'm guessing some of us here were even spanked (**gasp**) once in awhile, but it seems to me that we all found a way to pull through that sever emotional trauma.

As I’ve said before, I don’t advocate spanking, and I agree with individualism and allowing kids to make their own decisions in instances where it is conducive for them to do so. I personally just think the extremism you support could be very detrimental.